Dr. Jessica Rizk, Senior Research Associate at Signal 49 (formerly Conference Board of Canada), Lecturer, University of Waterloo and Wilfrid Laurier University, Educator

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;26;19
Welcome to Eh I, a podcast about the future of artificial intelligence in Canadian education. I'm your host, Ryan Oliver, the CEO of Ampere and Canada Learning Code. And I'm Melissa Sariffodeen, the co-founder of Canada Learning Code. All right. We're going to start this episode, as we always do, talking about things both real and artificial that we've come across in the last little while.

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And I think going into this episode, we're talking to Jessica Rizk from a company called Signal 49. And I wanted to talk about brand because, Signal 49 is an organization that was previously known as the Conference Board of Canada, which is not a small company to rebrand Conference Board of Canada. If you've listened to the news any time in the last 20 or 30 years, you've probably heard about reports from the Conference Board of Canada.

00;00;49;23 - 00;01;08;27
And that is a big undertaking to to take a rebrand. So we touched on that in the interview. But now you have started a new organization in the last little while, having left Canada learning code to, to begin your own thing. And, I thought it was an interesting conversation here. Like how we have both as organizations that have rebranded in the last couple of years, use artificial intelligence for that.

00;01;08;27 - 00;01;29;23
Do you want to speak to what your new organization is and how I played a role, potentially in naming it? Yeah, actually, I just launched Arcbright. And, I used AI entirely to come up with the name. It's interesting because there is so much discussion, I feel, around AI and the importance of like maintaining taste and preference and like in human taste.

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And, you know, I you you'd think a brand is, you know, one of arguably the most important touch points that you have with your customer or your client, your learner. But I haven't gone through rebrands and trying to, like, get something to capture perfectly, like the essence of what I was trying to accomplish. I felt like I was really helpful at brainstorming.

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I gave it a bunch of criteria like what I'm doing is focusing on being succession for some business. And so, you know, I wanted something that, you know, capsule8 in my energy and could have used and, and, you know, big dreams, but also talked a bit about succession and arc break kind of brought those two things two together.

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And was also super efficient to tell me which domains were not taken so that I could have the documents. Correct. Yeah. You know, and so I thought it was great just as a brainstorm partner. Do I, like, wonder whether or not, you know, I should have have more involvement? I mean, it was prompting, right? I think this is the piece is it wasn't just the one shot.

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Right? Like I had a chance to, like, go back and iterate on it. But I felt like when I saw it, it was, you know, it it worked for this next chapter. And, you know, I think about, you know, other brands and, you know, in the rebrands that I've been part of and maybe you as well, where, yeah, you spent a ton of time on it and you, there's so many perspectives and, I think it's just really helped to, to like, expedite that process, and I, I feel good about where it landed.

00;02;49;01 - 00;03;16;05
You know, it's a great name. As soon as I announced that, I thought, that's a wonderful name we took for our rebrand from bingo up to Ampere. That was a four year process, that that oversaw the evolution of AI. And I am, you know, I know personally, for me, I didn't touch on AI too much with that rebrand, but, we had a large group, like you say, and it went through three separate names that we, you know, launched with, I think back to the very first company I ever started when I was like 21, 22 years old.

00;03;16;06 - 00;03;40;26
It was, it was a music production company called Dog Pass. And the very real way that we developed that name in 20 errors in 2000 or 2001, was we decided, you know, all the cool things in life are two words together, like, like Silverchair and Arcbright. Yes. And Walmart. And so I just remember sitting with friends and Tim Hortons and writing, you know, a bunch of words in one column, a bunch of words in the others and connected them.

00;03;40;26 - 00;03;57;06
And that was the. Yeah, that was the way we came up with Dog Bus. The other option was Creamy Cleanse, which was not a good name. So, anyway, it was a very interesting process. But I really like your name, I think. I think, you know, you and I, did a really good job on the other email.

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I think you.

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This episode features a conversation with Jessica Rizk, the senior research associate for education and skills at Signal 49, formerly the conference Board of Canada. We talk about the intersection of artificial intelligence and the Canadian educational landscape. This discussion moves away from sort of the initial fear and resistance of generative AI in 2023 to a more nuanced, optimistic look in 2026, where we focus on how institutions and individuals can adapt to a really rapidly changing tech environment.

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Welcome to the podcast, Jessica. Thank you for having me. Joanna. Tell us about signal 49. And maybe we start there because I think covers word of Canada is the name. I have always, heard different research reports. Is is there any difference with signal 49? Is this a straight out rebrand? What is signal for you? A straight out rebrand?

00;04;50;21 - 00;05;08;04
We, we don't do conferences anymore, hence the name change. The conference where Canada has been around for, I think, about 70 years. And I think originally we we did a lot more convening than we do now. And so it was just it was just time. And so signal for you and I really kind of represents the works that we're doing.

00;05;08;04 - 00;05;28;12
So nothing has really changed in terms of on the work front. It's just signal. And we got to have like a better if you give me second, I can find the actual the explanation for for for why we did. It's a Signal 49 but off the top of my head it is, it is because signal kind of, signifies that we kind of cut through the noise.

00;05;28;12 - 00;05;47;04
We we do forecasting, we talk about the impact of what's going on in Canadian society because we have 11, I believe, 11 different knowledge areas. So I'm on the education skills team. But we have immigration, we have health, we have economics. And so singles really meant to like cut through the noise and give signals as to what's happening across Canada.

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And then 49 is, an ode to the 49th parallel. So it I believe it sort of signifies that we're doing Canadian research. And then signal is also, a nod to Signal Hill. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So there's just sort of like a play a little bit of play on words here, but essentially it's just mean that we're, you know, we're doing Canadian research.

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Yeah. I think at the end of the day it's like it's those reports. What's you want to speak to, what's your specific area of expertise? So you are the senior research associate for education and skills like what our when, when when someone comes across to your desk what's what is it the types of topics you're working at.

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Yeah. So there's, there's a bunch. So as I was telling you before, currently I'm leading a lot of our AI and, future workforce readiness kind of portfolio. So basically we, we tend to focus, the conference board as a conference where I'm not single for nine in general. We just rebranded. So I still getting used to saying, so before, you know, I'm leaving a third year, we brand so we get a okay, it's so weird.

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Still, I'm not used to it. It feels like a foreign entity. But we'll get there. We achieve the 49 focus a lot on higher education. So a lot of the work I'm doing now is around how AI is really redefining and transforming higher education. Thinking about the ways in which, you know, faculty and educators are, how are they doing post-secondary in the age of AI?

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How are students engaging and learning in this kind of new environment? So a lot of it is I, it's not actually all of what I'm doing now is actually an AI workforce readiness, but we do more than just AI. But for me, it's a lot about the future of work and skills. And under that kind of like AI umbrella right now, that's kind of really what my main focus is on.

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And I was telling Ryan last we chatted that I have a background in K12 so often as we're doing this kind of research in the higher education space. You know, I can't help but think about how that applies to the K-12 environment, but I'm sure we'll have lots of opportunities. Talk about that. But really, that's that's my main jam right now.

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I in higher ed, do you want a more formal answer? So why single for you and I because we have like this I told him, I said I memorize why we changed our name, like what it meant, but, yeah, there's like a, there's a better articulate way. And this is the other. Very well I like Mel said like you know, Canada Learning Code went through a rebrand.

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I mean, a decent amount of time ago now, from Ladies Learning Code to kind of lady code. Oh, I didn't even realize that Ladies Learning Code was. Yeah. Same organization. Okay. And, and Ampere just went through a rebrand. We were doing work for the first 13 years of our lives, and, and last year change.

00;08;34;08 - 00;08;58;21
So I fully identified, and I found it and actually wasn't the off. It was the meaning. Okay. The meaning behind our name Signal represents clarity and insight, cutting through noise to eliminate what matters. So I wasn't too far off of that 49 to reflect support and parallel symbolizing our deeply Canadian perspective. And then it's also inspired by Signal Hill, a Newfoundland and Labrador where the first trans and Atlantic wireless messages connected continents and made the impossible possible.

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The spirit of innovation and connection drives everything we do. So there we go. That's how we ended up at signal 49. I like, in your pivot branding, in the signal 39 branding pivot away from conferences. The very first thing on your website now is a comfort set up coming up. Yeah. So it's funny because we actually are doing a lot more conferences, this fiscal year.

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But yeah, we still do it. We just people assume they don't know anything about us. And you say, where do you where conference Board of Canada. They just they don't associate it with research. They associate it with conferences. So we wanted to kind of lead with that. We are a research remote applied research organization. I think we're the largest nonprofit in Canada.

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So yeah. Okay, so we reached out, to you originally, and to the conference board, at the time, because of a report that came out in October 2024, it was called the How Our Educators Navigating the AI Revolution. I feel like you could put out a new report every week, and the answer would probably be different to some extent, because AI is changing so much.

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I kind of educator's understanding of it. But I'm curious, like from from the work you're doing, the data interactions you're having. I guess with a post-secondary lens here, like, how are educators navigating AI right now and how how are you feeling? They are they are feeling about it gets a mixed bag for sure. We as we did the report that you're referencing to, I think it was 2023, there was a lot more uncertainty and fear when it came to using AI at the time, because it was still relatively new.

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And, and there was like this big scary thing and, educators were really unsure of what that's going to mean for their profession, for education as a whole, for teaching and learning. So there was a lot more fear and resistance 2023. And so fast forward now we're 2026. And and the the research that we're currently doing, we've just wrapped a project up and we're starting a new one.

00;10;53;04 - 00;11;27;15
We definitely there is still the fear. Don't get me wrong. There's still a lot of uncertainty about, you know, how do we pivot, how do we redefine teaching and learning in the age of AI? But I think we've moved beyond this dichotomy of is it good? Is it bad? Is it here? Is it leaving? I think for the most part, what our research is showing is that there's an understanding that this is going to transform, and it is it's not even going to it is transforming the way that we're working, the way that we're learning the way that we're teaching, and that we need to figure out how to best leverage this as a tool

00;11;27;15 - 00;11;47;23
moving forward. So I would say how I'm feeling is that there's more optimism. I would think more awareness, more recognition, more conversation, which I think is really what we need to be having, hence our conversation here. But there's a lot more wanting to understand it, less like I don't even want to touch it. I don't even want to go there.

00;11;47;26 - 00;12;05;28
So that's reassuring to me. We're talking about it more. I'll jump in. Yeah. I appreciate that. I think something that in the call you all spoke about. So correct me if I'm wrong, but is this idea that, like, educators have moved move past like the cheating argument or like this resistance to that? Like, can you talk a little bit more about that?

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I think that's really interesting. You know, I still hear it in pockets, but I'd love to know the broader the broader shift happening. Yeah, I it's definitely still a concern, especially again, if we're talking the higher education space, there's definitely a fear of, well, how do I how do I use AI in generative AI. And, you know, in higher education tends to be like create like copilot ChatGPT, things like that.

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How do we use it in a way where we're not worried about cheating? Because that for especially for a lot of social sciences and humanities and, disciplines that have traditionally relied on writing, how do we use it in a way that students are not going to cheat? It's still a concern, but I think it's moving beyond that, and it's the conversations that we've been hearing are a lot more okay.

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Clearly, if ChatGPT or Copilot generative AI can, produce something that we're, that we're need to rethink assessment, we need to rethink focusing on the product that okay. In the end, the goal is, a paper, a reflection, something that could easily be done using AI. We need to now think about the process. How are we teaching students to do these things?

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How are we teaching them to walk through their thought processes. And so there's kind of like multiple check ins, not just like here's a final paper that we know that I can just replicate. So again, optimism in the sense that there's awareness that we're hearing from faculty that they recognize that, you know, if it's here that we we need to move beyond cheating, we need to think about the process.

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How do we teach students to engage in the process and learn about that? But then again, you have the flip side where it's it is still a legitimate concern. And then I anecdotally, because I also teach in the higher education space, have heard that a lot of faculty are going back to in-person exams because of the fear of cheating.

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And so it's like this, I know, like there's there's two kind of sides to this. You've got the one side that are like, let's innovate. Let's like rethink now assessment and curriculum, which is like a huge undertaking. You got to rethink now how we are giving how we we're doing assessment, how we're thinking about students learning. And then you have this whole other side that's like let's just go back to the basic, let's just put them in the class, monitor them.

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And and that way we know that I cannot, cannot be a problem. So it's very interesting to see kind of this dual lens I guess I'll say. So I wouldn't say it's completely gone away from that. There's still that narrative, but we are starting to move beyond that. But moving beyond that, yeah, requires like a rethinking of assessment.

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Yeah, I appreciate that. I also teach post-secondary actually teach leveraging information technology course. And it's really interesting assisting. Yeah. Because we are grappling with some of those themes, decisions and conversations where, well, we're teaching technology. You know, there's like there's two sides of the coin on the use in it and the discussion environment and how to assess.

00;14;59;08 - 00;15;30;17
So it's it's really interesting and timely. I guess like one follow up question while my voice is somewhat stable, which is, you know, I like to you mentioned a bit earlier, like there's a bit more confidence or a bit more, there's a bit more positive approach. I'm wondering in the post-secondary environment if if there are things that we are overconfident about, maybe or like if there's, anything that we're taking for granted, let's just say with respect to the content AI or approaches, the kind of flip side of that, you know, where maybe we were underestimating.

00;15;30;17 - 00;16;00;18
There's another way to ask the question about how well we're using AI. Yeah, or like the impact of it or, you know, governance of it, like anything from your, you know, your personal experience, obviously research and signal 49 as well. That's kind of a tough question, but it is it I, I think so I think a for underestimating I would say so it was, it was very over underestimated because I could talk about underestimating I think just underestimation over time.

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Yeah I think underestimate is like a great. Yeah. Counter. Well because like and here's why. Because if we're thinking like so so I'm in so I teach fourth year and these are 20 young 20 year olds who are like about to enter the job market. But I was telling Ryan I I've also taught elementary school aged children and I also have a son and JC so I think about it really on like the spectrum.

00;16;21;19 - 00;16;41;07
I like students entering the system and the students leaving the system. And if the goal of the system, which is in this case, like educational institution, is to prepare students for the workplace, then I think we're hugely underestimating, the impact on the value of AI in their trajectories. And that, like, I think kind of worries me a bit.

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And I and and it's not just me. I have seen that come out of the research that there is this, again, this awareness piece of that for the it's like if you know, you know. Right. Like I feel like the faculty are like getting it like that. They're in touch a bit with the labor market are really understanding that if we don't teach our, our students how to interact with these kinds of tools like safely, responsibly, ethically, like are we having conversations about like, where does the data go when you uploaded something to ChatGPT, are we having conversations about critical thinking?

00;17;11;22 - 00;17;33;12
So like when you ask ChatGPT for an answer like you, you know, be critical about where it's getting its answers from. So where I think we're underestimating the importance. And I think for a large part, we're just sort of still a bit sweeping it under the rug, like, okay. Yeah. Like you, you know, I'm thinking about institutions that I've worked with it.

00;17;33;14 - 00;17;53;07
We've looked at some of their, their, as the policies, like their institutional statements around AI in its largest super ambiguous. And it's kind of like if you use AI, you know, like, as an instructor, you make that call like students should say, if they use it or not. But like, we're not really going beyond that. I feel like we're still scratching the surface.

00;17;53;07 - 00;18;12;03
Right? Like, okay, use AI. Like say, I'll use it. But like, we're not really like teaching them how to get how to think about it. And I think the problem is that because as a lot of educators aren't aware themselves, how do you teach a generation of students how to use AI if you yourself are so unsure about it?

00;18;12;05 - 00;18;35;17
So like a it's like a trickle down effect? I mean, and I mean the, the size of the post-secondary institutions in this country like they are, each one is a barge. It is really hard to pivot and and move as quick as I move. So is there like, have you seen any or does or does the signal 49 offer any advice in terms of like what what has worked?

00;18;35;17 - 00;18;55;29
Well? Have you seen any institutions that have really adapted to this change? Well, to this point or anyone you want to call out or I don't know if I can call out, but, I don't know if I'm allowed to, but what, what I'll say is from from our research, so we did we did like an institutional scan across Canada where we're looking at, like, policies.

00;18;55;29 - 00;19;13;19
And then we then you talk to, senior leadership about, like, their AI integration and like how they're using it. And I, I think the what we've seen that works super well is that when there is some kind of structure in the way that like, you've addressed that, okay, we're an institution and here's how we think about AI.

00;19;13;19 - 00;19;39;03
But it's not limiting, right. Like there's still that like agency for exploration. Like that was a big thing that came up in our research is when faculty have opportunities to like play with AI, learn with AI, learn from each other. That's when we saw the most like growth and the most movement forward with AI is in the institutions where they were encouraged to like to learn from it, to fail from it.

00;19;39;03 - 00;19;59;22
But they also have like working groups. Are they? You're not, you're not. Why reinvent the wheel if so-and-so in another department is using AI? And that's what's working. That's not working. So again, back to the conversation awareness be so institutions where there was like conversations and and more faculty professional development and more encouragement to try it. And it's okay to make mistakes.

00;19;59;22 - 00;20;21;24
Learn with your students that seem to be working well compared to other institutions that didn't address it at all, or had very rigid policies, because the the flip side of that is that you've lost students and faculty to a large extent, that are scared because they don't know what's allowed and what's not. So there's got to be like some level of, you're allowed to do this.

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You're not going to get in trouble from like, the faculty and like the student side. But then there has to be like the second level of that is so like we encouraging you and here's how, you know, from the faculty side, maybe we're running working groups where you can come together and share what's working and share what's not.

00;20;35;06 - 00;21;03;08
And like that seems to be really what's what's making the difference. Yeah. We we spoke a couple of weeks ago to, to, a high school, a local high school, that, that really addressed it as like what the big challenges is if we just say no, I, it breaks trust because then the conversation around AI or around any assignment is, is just just it's built on trust or not trust, like, did this person actually.

00;21;03;08 - 00;21;21;17
Right? This is this is this rooted in this, like, it really has to change. The way assessment works, I guess is like is like and you've touched on that a bit, but I guess, like, what what are you seeing for those that are succeeding at this or at least a little bit, you know, we've talked about like create a playground, just allow it to allow it to be something we can experiment with.

00;21;21;20 - 00;21;44;25
Have you seen changes to assessment process yet that post-secondary that has been successful, or is that something we're still trying to catch up to like we're slow? I think we're still trying to catch up with that. It's like we've seen it like little pockets here and there. But again, because teaching, whether you know, whether you're in K to 12 or you're in post-secondary space, it's such a it's such an interesting place because you'll have your top down policies.

00;21;44;25 - 00;22;00;02
But then what you actually do in the classroom, how you assess is very individualistic, I'm sure. Like now you probably, you know, you were in that space, you've seen it, right? Like you yourself can kind of figure out, how do I do this? How do I not? I'm like, I think it takes a lot of self initiation to be like, I really want to rethink about how I'm doing.

00;22;00;02 - 00;22;23;27
Assessment. And I think you have to have the buy in to want to to care enough to rethink how you're doing. Assessment. And so, you know, like a few weeks ago, I was sitting on a BCC campus panel. All right. Imagine like the audience is probably largely BCC based, but so this is folks in the higher education space in the conversation again pivoted to like, so how do you assess like what can we do?

00;22;23;27 - 00;22;52;08
And so but it made me think, I think the people who are probably coming to those kinds of webinars or entering the work in groups are the ones who are already thinking, okay, I need to rethink how I do assessment and probably not the ones that need that extra push. So yeah, there's there is there is more awareness to it and there is more folks wanting to understand how to do assessment, but it's still something I think we're we're, we're way behind because you need again like template.

00;22;52;08 - 00;23;08;27
You need to share resources like it's if you're an instructor or an educator and you've got a busy schedule again whether you're K to 12 or higher ed. And I think this is the big thing with teaching in general. There's like always so many things thrown at you. Now you're going to learn a whole new thing with like a all I like rethink your assessment.

00;23;08;27 - 00;23;29;11
Where do you even start? I think that's a that's a big struggle that we heard when we talked to faculty to who who recognize like, yeah, I probably need to reconsider how I do my assessment, but it's like a time crunch. It's a where do I find the time to redo it? What would help is having sample assignments, sample syllabus, a sample lectures that they can start to pull on.

00;23;29;13 - 00;24;02;23
Like we need more kind of shared resources I think yeah, it's a full time job. It's like that that just the assessment piece here. Yeah I also think it's almost like the thing people latch on to, which goes back to like, what are we like overconfident or like it just seems like the most obvious place. And you're I wonder if we aren't or are there things maybe this question for you is we do this here, like is that are there changes or parts of the, you know, K-12 experience, post-secondary experience you think are going or are going to be the focus next?

00;24;02;23 - 00;24;27;23
Like where do you see, you know, technology in the classroom evolving. So do you think a lot of it has been around assessment? I'm like, I wonder if that's just like because that's where we have some control and can fixate and, whether we're, we're missing what is it, the forest. The trees. When it's also it's, it's, it's a big a part of it because we do have to move away from like product and look at process.

00;24;27;23 - 00;24;46;17
But in terms of like what other, what other changes are the big question. So this was something after that came out of our research. That was was a big question. And the important question is what does it even mean to be AI literate? So how are we teaching students to be, you know, we we hear this phrase thrown out a lot.

00;24;46;17 - 00;25;04;07
We need AI ready grads. I let her go. What does that even mean? Like, let's backtrack. What are we expecting? That students who are entering the labor market are entering like what skills in terms of AI are they coming to labor market with? We don't I don't think union is the collectively we have an answer to that question.

00;25;04;07 - 00;25;25;15
Yeah. I think that is probably the biggest thing that beyond the assessment that we really need to think about, is what are like what are the key metrics, milestones that that students need to be, understanding in order to create AI ready graduates? That's is a critical thinking. You know what? What does that look like at every grade?

00;25;25;17 - 00;25;46;20
This is a big question. Signal 49 does a lot of like a lot of workplace ready, workplace, research. I'm curious like, do you hear from do employers know what they're looking for when it when they want an AI ready grad? Because I'm just thinking to myself, like, we have 110 employees right now. You know, I want everyone to be AI ready, but I've never sat down and defined what that means.

00;25;46;22 - 00;26;13;10
Yeah. Interesting question. We did some research with employers, but it was like, a little bit specific. Feels like it wasn't like it was like real estate, finance, insurance. And it was like there were niche fields, but we talked to them about like, yeah, what? You know, what is it? What is a graduate like look like like what are you looking for in terms of like the skills that you want newcomer new graduates to have in your field?

00;26;13;13 - 00;26;39;08
And I would say for the most part, the answers were similar in the sense that they wanted, less of the technical stuff, unless you're going to a very specific field that requires like an AI competency, like a computer engineer or software engineer. But let's again, let's take like a real estate or insurance, for example, where maybe AI is not something that you're trained in, like your program per se.

00;26;39;11 - 00;26;59;11
But they wanted graduates who were adaptable and were like resilient to the changes, recognizing that AI is changing so fast that even if we were tomorrow to say we want all our students to be trained in like XYZ, like five, ten years from now, that may not be the case. There may be a new thing, a new program, a new whatever, right?

00;26;59;14 - 00;27;23;10
So it was like, we want we want to hire graduates who are like, adaptable, resilient, like they're willing to kind of go with the flow in it and learn as we, you know, technology evolves as AI evolve. So they really wanted those kind of whatever you want to call them soft skills, people skill, social emotional skill. They wanted people who are willing to collaborate more with others, like learn from others, but like it goes back to like the critical thinking.

00;27;23;10 - 00;27;43;16
They wanted folks who are able to critically think, and they were less concerned about the technical pieces because they understand that you can learn a lot on the job. They wanted more of the outside of that piece, just like the being okay with uncertainty and change and not, you know, the resistance piece was was a big concern amongst already employed individuals.

00;27;43;16 - 00;28;00;10
And like how I and like automation are changing workplaces. There was a lot of well we have got people who've been working in these jobs for 20, 20 years who are super resistant to change. We want to make sure that our incoming grads are okay with the uncertainty in the to say the rapid change of technology is happening so fast.

00;28;00;10 - 00;28;17;22
We can't we can't keep up. So the so that's on the employers. I kind of what we've been hearing a signal for an AI researchers or the soft skills that's that's just really in demand. Makes total sense. Just the ability to adapt with the times. Yeah. Can't keep up. You're like chasing the tail end of what's the expression?

00;28;17;24 - 00;28;39;22
Know there's a better way to say that. But, you know, like where it's. You know what I mean? Like, we you can't we can't get on. I don't think we're getting to a point where we're up to speed with, like, technology and everyone's like, train to the to the extent that they should, but it's just changing so much, especially with, but I think there's still reasons to be optimistic of how we're, like, adapting to it.

00;28;39;24 - 00;29;10;14
So I don't know if I said this in our call last time. Right. But a a few weeks ago, I was in Vancouver for the creative 12 summit, and it was around how is K-12 and B.C. adapting to AI? And someone had a really good point, and it was like compared to different kinds of it, like innovations or technologies like smartphones or, smart boards or whatever, like the time between AI is like conception and like how fast they pivoted, like people are really.

00;29;10;14 - 00;29;30;13
And I say people, I should say people like institutions. Boards are really pivoting a lot quicker than they had. I think in previous like years with different kinds of phenomenons. Right. Like there is a, there is like we we talk about how slow we are to like keep up with AI but really like on this, if you like zoom out a bit like we've actually picking it up quite quick and we're like pivoting.

00;29;30;19 - 00;29;52;17
I think K to 12 and post-secondary are realizing that there's not a lot of time to just sit and wait for this trend to phase, because it's not going to phase out. I'm curious, if you can't speak about it, then that's okay. We can just get this. But I'm curious, you mentioned, previously or you, had just wrapped a project with the Alberta machine Intelligence Institute and kind of got a sense of some of the barriers they were seeing.

00;29;52;17 - 00;30;09;10
And, I'm curious if you can shed some light on kind of what that that project was about and what, what sort of research that was specifically. Yeah. I've, I think I'll be okay. I'll probably have to double check if I can speak about it, but, I mean, it wasn't anything crazy, but. So. Okay, our a project with Alberta machine intelligence.

00;30;09;13 - 00;30;30;29
Do they have their workforce? Right. In this project. And they're looking to develop training for institutions and staff and faculty and students. But like again how to properly using AI. So our task was really to kind of get a a lay of the land and understand, you know, where could work should they be targeting their programs to what are the pain points, what are the challenges?

00;30;30;29 - 00;30;53;14
What are the barriers like, to help them adapt their programs better for institutions who may need it? And in terms of what we found, I don't think there would be anything that would surprise anyone in terms of like what the challenges were. It was faculty engagement or like this engagement that you had a lot of faculty that still didn't even have the buy in.

00;30;53;16 - 00;31;13;20
Again, whether you're K-12 or your post-secondary, if you're your people, if you're faculty, if your educators don't even see the value in learning AI or translating that to students, that's that's a big barrier, right? They're not going to change if they can't see that this is going to be something important to their their students in the workplace. So that was a huge one.

00;31;13;22 - 00;31;44;19
We also saw that there was less, you know, again, the AI literacy piece sort of like not even understanding like what it means, but also like institutional direction. So there was this just we don't know what our policies are. We haven't communicated what we're allowed to do, not love to do. So just the uncertainty in terms of their own autonomy, but also autonomy was another issue was that they, you know, if you're a faculty member, the perk is that you have the autonomy to kind of do what you want to do.

00;31;44;19 - 00;32;05;07
And so there was this like, like tension a bit between being told what you have to do and like feeling like you're forced into something, but also allowing professors to have that freedom to kind of do things as they want. So there was like that push and pull between, you must do this, but we also need to respect that faculty have the space to explore.

00;32;05;09 - 00;32;27;15
Yeah. That's it's interesting. Yeah. It seems like the same same at general area. Like I guess just a quick follow up. We've mentioned resistance de AI a few times throughout the call. Is it it's is it worse? Is the resistance from the teachers or the students more? Does it seem or I mean, it's probably a little bit of both, but like, does it feel like it's come in more from the teachers or the students?

00;32;27;17 - 00;32;44;27
Yeah, I personally I think it's from like from the educators. I think students are resistant because they're scared. Because they're fearful, not because, oh, I don't see any value in this. I'm not going to use it. It's more I don't want to use this because I don't want to get in trouble, and I don't know what I'm allowed to do or not do.

00;32;45;00 - 00;33;04;10
And that is a scary thought that you have, like in my fourth year class, I think on day one in January, I was like, okay, it's a sociology class who's here, has used AI and almost nobody put their hand up. And I said, like, why? They said AI. They said, no one's really talked to us about what we can or cannot do.

00;33;04;10 - 00;33;20;23
I've just had instructors say outright, do not use it or you're going to trouble. So they're like, I to be safe. I just don't use it because I don't want to get in trouble. Well said. Nobody in their fourth year up to the fourth year has actually said, let's talk about AI and let's talk about how you can use it and how you shouldn't use it.

00;33;20;23 - 00;33;39;21
And what's ethically and responsibly. Right. Anecdotally, I hear that's exactly what I heard from post-secondary students all the time. It's just I don't like I don't know if I'm allowed to use it. So I'm just not going to. And because of that lack of like lack of clarity. Yeah, there's lack of, exactly lack of clarity, lack of communication.

00;33;39;23 - 00;34;01;12
Like, you know, it's not built into their syllabus. They're not openly talking about it. And if they are, it's usually just shutting it down, saying just don't use it. So. So the resistance. Yes, I think it's the student resistance. But the resistance from the students is driven by fear, whereas the faculty, the resistance is because again, it's sounds bad, but it's more work, right?

00;34;01;12 - 00;34;21;05
It's more work to to rethink how you do your course. Like. And I get it, I teach social sciences and it's a big lift to be like, well, I especially for folks, have done it for x, y years and in courses where it's really writing heavy base, like how now we've got to rethink how I do it, instruction and assessment in a way that allows them to use AI.

00;34;21;05 - 00;34;38;29
But then it's a big lift. So there are understandably a lot of fear around that and a lot of stressors around that. Yeah, especially when the pace is just changing. It's like you're gonna have to change it next semester anyway, you know? Like it feels that way. It's interesting as you're talking, I was just thinking, I mean, I know we're parents of young kids.

00;34;39;01 - 00;34;57;22
Probably why I have a cough cold, but this idea of, like, sturdy parenting, you know what I feel like? You know, you be firm behind any one of these boundaries. But anyway, I, I'm like, oh, is that a take to apply here? Possibly. My I think so, I think so, yeah. All right. And just, you know, kids, kids especially and youth.

00;34;57;22 - 00;35;17;03
But I think everybody needs to know, like where the boundary is and someone needs to set it. So that's important. Like, they need the room to explore and push up against it and be okay with that. Right. So, who knew? I think Doctor Becky and the sturdy parenting is and I love Doctor Becky. I listened to her podcast all the time, but it's so true that you need that structure.

00;35;17;06 - 00;35;36;25
But then the freedom within that structure to explore is same thing with parenting. You got to be a firm parent, but allow your kids to grow. And I they just say literally the same thing applies in the space. Like give some structure, give some awareness that you are okay to use this explore. And I think and I think that's one piece that you need to have institutional policies.

00;35;36;25 - 00;35;53;00
But then the other pieces that there are already work happening with or without policies in place, right, like you are also have like the people on the ground who are like the lone wolf or the champions within their institutions who are not like, let's say, waiting for like the green car, the green light to go for it. Right?

00;35;53;00 - 00;36;12;16
So there has to again be that there has to be that balance. And the boundaries need to, like, encompass everything. I think that's what we're saying too, and sounds like, you know, to some degree mentioned early in the call, like where there's sort of like the governing statements that they're ambiguous. They're not, you know, like they're not helpful in some ways when they don't provide enough wrap around.

00;36;12;16 - 00;36;38;11
Right. So I appreciate that everything comes back to parenting. I had a final question. Question for you. More like actions or advice. And I know you have so many where so many hats. So I'm curious if you had like a piece of advice for a professor, maybe like a dean or a, you know, a, a leader in these institutions and then students, and it could be the same advice or could be different, but what would the kind of key takeaway be for these different hats?

00;36;38;11 - 00;37;07;19
So much pressure. What words of wisdom to leave everybody with. I think it would be a step away from like perfection, but from a, from a, I guess, an educator perspective. Right. Like, like I did a lot of work before I let my, my research, like my PhD and stuff was in digital technologies. And I think the same kind of things apply that for a lot of folks who are educators, there's this need to feel like you're the expert in the space.

00;37;07;19 - 00;37;27;28
And if I don't know the answer, then like, what am I doing here? And we saw this like ten years ago when it was like robotics and like and like coding was a big thing, that there was so much resistance. I'm sure you can speak to that just because they didn't feel like experts. And I think for the advice for educators, instructors would be like, move away from perfection and just like explore.

00;37;28;05 - 00;37;46;24
And it's okay to have it be imperfect and learn with your students. Among issues with your colleagues and your coworkers. Like just step away from this idea that you have to be the sage on the stage and like, you know everything, and that it's okay to be vulnerable and admit that this is something that you don't know a lot about and that you'd like to learn more and explore.

00;37;46;24 - 00;38;07;04
I think that I think that that's key. Just having that vulnerability piece for students. And I think we're talk if we're talking about like higher education students, like post-secondary students, it would be don't be afraid to ask questions and to to like to push back on instructors a bit and understand, okay. Like, you know, can I use it?

00;38;07;10 - 00;38;30;08
I how can I use it? Can we talk about it? Like I think too often students just don't don't want to muddy the water and they just kind of stay back. But I think it's okay. And I think they I would encourage them to have those kind of conversations if they're not already having them with their instructors. And, because I think that's one way to kind of keep the momentum going and keep the conversations going.

00;38;30;10 - 00;38;50;02
Yeah. It's good advice. Just it's, just that iterative development approach of just let's just try everything and and figure it out together. I like it a lot. That's, that is a great spot, Tim. Thanks so much, Jessica, for joining us. I really appreciate it. Pleasure to be here. Thank you to both of you. This was a lot of fun.

00;38;50;02 - 00;38;53;17
So thank you.

00;38;53;20 - 00;39;12;21
Eh I is a podcast from Ampere and Canada Learning Code brought to you by the Pinnguaq Foundation hosted by Ryan Oliver and Melissa Sariffodeen. The show is produced by Zac Miller and edited by Zac Miller and Kyle Gordon. If you want to support Eh I, please check out the Pinnguaq Foundation on Canada Helps and consider a donation.

00;39;12;23 - 00;39;15;12
Thanks for listening.