00;00;00;00 - 00;00;26;23
Welcome to Eh I, a podcast about the future of AI in Canadian education. I am Ryan Oliver, the chief executive officer of Ampere and Canada Learning Code. And I'm Melissa Sariffodeen, co-founder of Canada Learning Code. And this is our unofficial start to what we will call a season two as we continue to evolve this podcast and adjust it.
00;00;26;23 - 00;00;48;14
And we've gotten some great feedback, after the first eight episodes and we're excited to keep this going. Today we are going to be talking to Lisa Floyd, an assistant professor at Wilfrid Laurier is that is a internationally recognized leader in K-12 Stem education, specializing in the integration of coding, computational thinking and artificial intelligence into the classroom.
00;00;48;21 - 00;01;12;04
She has over 20 years of experience as a high school teacher. She's been a consultant for the Ontario Ministry of Education and really bridges the gap between academic research and practical pedagogy. I've had the chance to go on for walks and talks of her. We've done some playdates, and I've gotten to know her over the last many years, and it's, no surprise that she's a recipient of the Prime Minister's Award for Teaching Excellence.
00;01;12;04 - 00;01;33;17
She's a huge advocate, and we're really lucky to have her on this episode. That's awesome. And so we are going to start off, with our introductions to Lisa here. And, and she's going to walk us through this core philosophy of, focusing on coding to learn rather than just learning to code.
00;01;33;19 - 00;01;54;06
Well, I'm really excited for this conversation because, Lisa, I've known you for quite some time and been able to follow your journey. And so for everybody else that's listening. Maybe we can start there. If you can just let us a little let us know about how you got here. How would you characterize your background or yourself? You know, in this world of Stem and AI, that would be awesome.
00;01;54;08 - 00;02;19;25
Okay, sure. So, I started teaching high school computer science, mathematics and science, years ago. And I remember, being really interested in what I saw happening in the computer science classroom when students were programing a computer and being really, excited and interesting about interested about the type of thinking that was happening and the problem solving, that they were doing.
00;02;19;25 - 00;02;46;06
And I returned back from a maternity leave after our third kid. And I remember saying to my husband, who also is kind of in the same space, that I wanted to do something more about this. I wanted to bring computer science and coding to younger people. I wanted, more people to be able to learn about Programable devices and how it applies to all different subject areas and how can enhance their understanding, of mathematics and science and AI can be cross-curricular.
00;02;46;06 - 00;03;04;10
And so, I went back to the high school I was teaching at, and I connected with the administrators who didn't know me because I had been off and I said, hey, I want to host this, day where I invite all the feeder school, elementary teachers to our high school, and I'm going to show them, how could they can do this coding stuff in their classes.
00;03;04;10 - 00;03;27;02
And this is back in 2014. So it really wasn't, you know, mandatory part of our curriculum. It wasn't really in anyone's portfolio at the school board office besides a separate computer science class in high school. And so the idea is I wanted to, help to to I wanted teachers to, to learn how they could do this, effectively.
00;03;27;05 - 00;03;44;29
And then if the students were learning about coding and computer science at younger ages, maybe they wouldn't see it as something that is only for certain people by the time they get to high school, because it was an elective. So that was pretty successful. I had a lot of people come, there is some excitement built around that.
00;03;45;01 - 00;04;06;03
I learned a lot. And, and then one of my colleagues, mentioned the work of Doctor George. Got Anita's, who was doing some work on coding and mathematics, and so I connected with him. I was going to host in Second Day, just outside of London. Again, inviting, you know, elementary school teachers to a high school.
00;04;06;03 - 00;04;31;17
And he offered to, to come. And then that kind of changed the whole trajectory of my career. Because, you know, he was at Western University doing research, and I ended up teaching a course called Computational modeling and mathematics and science education, for pre-service teachers at the University, did my masters and swore I would never do any graduate work again, and then ended up doing my PhD, a lot, because my husband started his and I couldn't let him run at me.
00;04;31;17 - 00;04;54;15
Right. So, and also, I was really excited about all of this stuff. So now I just, I've been I started working as a consultant. I was doing a lot of workshops and presentations and, and then after I finished my PhD, I started at Laurier University. So I'm, I'm assistant professor there. Well, for Laurier University and their faculty of education.
00;04;54;22 - 00;05;20;14
So I get to teach, mathematics, education and science and technology education. So we bring in a lot of those same concepts like coding, but more like helping to, to develop an understanding of how it works. And then, but also to push their thinking, because I feel like it's kind of helped me to be a better teacher because I use it more, to help every student in the classroom push their thinking a little bit.
00;05;20;21 - 00;05;48;08
And of course, also understand how the technological, world around them, around them works. So it's sort of like a long, long version of what I've been. I is, I'm curious, like, you know, I have you often advocate my understanding is you advocate often for, like, coding to learn as opposed to learning to code. We both have run organizations that that are trying to you know, I've advocated for teaching kids to code, learning like that's, that has this vital skill.
00;05;48;08 - 00;06;11;04
And we can get into later where that has gone with AI. But, you speak to like what? What kind of you are advocating for when you're talking about coding to learn? Yeah. So I guess what I see happening in classrooms when students are coding is they're they're approaching problems differently. They're, breaking things down into smaller, more manageable pieces.
00;06;11;04 - 00;06;36;00
They're, pushing their thinking. They're exciting, excited about it. They're getting immediate feedback. So it almost acts as a teacher. So when we were doing it for, like, mathematics or science, and they're exploring models for that, help them to understand these things. They can change things really quickly, and they get that immediate feedback. So, one of the affordances I talk about is that it is it's dynamic in nature.
00;06;36;02 - 00;06;55;26
So that really helps out. And then students also, you know, they run into a lot of problems that they have to troubleshoot and work through. And so they're debugging, you know, their code. And so they end up supporting one another and helping each other with that. And some of the quieter students will see some of their, their peers struggling with something.
00;06;55;26 - 00;07;18;21
And they just they can't handle it. They have to speak up and help them, and support one another. So those are kind of the affordances I see happening. You know, we we do think it also helps to enhance understanding and math ideas because of that dynamic nature, immediate feedback. You're not having to wait for the teacher to come and help the, the, the program itself or the applications that they're playing around with that they're kind of immersed in.
00;07;18;24 - 00;07;42;25
Help them, to understand that. Then the teacher can, you know, focus on other students who might need a little bit more support. And that will vary depending on the context or the, the concept they happen to be working on that day. Other students who maybe might be bored or need a little bit more, to push their thinking, I find that coding helps us with that as well.
00;07;42;28 - 00;08;06;08
Because you're never finished, there's always more that you can do with your applications. There's always more, that you can more challenging work that you can do. It tends to have that low or high ceiling. And so everybody's kind of I, I talk a little bit about, Vygotsky's zone of proximal development, where every student is being able to reach that or push past that, no matter where they are.
00;08;06;10 - 00;08;33;21
So those are kind of the reasons why I, I love teaching coding. I know, you know, some people will challenge, you know, do we need to know coding because of I, but, you know, even Unesco has has doubled down on the fact that, you know, this is a skill that we we in order to understand how AI works, in order to, make informed decisions, you do have to have that basic understanding, of coding.
00;08;33;24 - 00;08;51;01
And even if you're having I do the coding for you, you still, need that, kind of basic understanding to know what to ask it to do in the first place, but just for the learning itself. That's where I see that benefits the most. Yeah. Everything you're describing is what I love so much about it.
00;08;51;03 - 00;09;16;04
Started this organization. That's nice. Yeah, just building on that too. So I remember at least I first learned about you. This is way back, I think like 2017, 2018, because you were a coauthor of a paper that was like, really instrumental to the way CLC can't look at the time, thought about what the work that we were doing, some of what you touched on, but specifically the, you know, remixing, unplug, tinkering.
00;09;16;06 - 00;09;42;28
I wish I remember I think time escapes me, but the pedagogical framework for computational thinking, right. Like that, I feel like, was this okay, we're going back in time. But like, that was the kind of, you know, important, the social constructivist approach. Right. Like to building, and I mean, we're gonna talk about a few other papers because I know, you know, you've written about and you're researching a lot of really interesting things, but when you like, think back to that time and think about where we are now, like, how much is the same?
00;09;42;28 - 00;10;09;06
How much is different? Like, what do you have any reflections on that now, almost a decade later? Well, for one, we have a new curriculum, here, Ontario, British Columbia, Manitoba, like a lot of provinces, have kind of embraced this, coding thing. I've kind of shifted away from talking about computational thinking, because there's some controversy over the term.
00;10;09;06 - 00;10;31;12
And what is, is it really computer science focused versus, other subject areas? So I find sometimes we get bogged down by those discussions and we just need to start doing it. And then once I see, you know, teachers who might be hesitant at first, because, you know, they have never done this before as young learners themselves.
00;10;31;12 - 00;10;53;10
And so, I feel like they just need to jump in and experience it. So I feel like that's just the fact that it's way more mainstream. Like everybody has to do it now, young students are seeing themselves in their teachers, now, like doing coding. So, there's a lot of, people who identify as woman teaching element in elementary schools.
00;10;53;10 - 00;11;18;27
And now all they are like, they're all doing coding now. So they're young people are seeing themselves in that. So there's, there's that, as well. And then like now we have access to all these, tools, these learning tools such as, like the Microbit, which we did back then, but now it's it's in every school, you know, the little mini programable device, that you can program to collect data about the environment.
00;11;18;27 - 00;11;42;06
We can connect that to science and technology. Now, the students can rather than just look at sets of data, they can collect the data themselves and automate the collection of that data, and then create a visualization to depict that data that they collected. And it's all, you know, using technology to do that. So it's just like, I feel like it's grown so much.
00;11;42;06 - 00;11;58;05
It's grown. I love that is grown, and I love that it's changed and that it's adapting. And we're seeing that with AI as well. Like it's going to just whatever we do now, it's never going to be the right answer, because there's always going to be something more that we can do, and we're going to evolve constantly, and change.
00;11;58;05 - 00;12;16;10
But yeah, I love seeing the directions going, or that it's kind of gone as well, just because now more and more people, all young people, are getting the opportunity to learn this stuff more so than before. I'd say.
00;12;16;13 - 00;12;42;05
Addressing the rise of generative AI energetic AI in education, Lisa warns against tools that eliminate productive struggle that's necessary for true learning. And we didn't see there was male made air quotes. Unproductive struggle. Because what we're talking about here is this idea of like maintaining critical thinking. I, I recently the, honor of speaking at a, teachers conference at Trent University over the summer, called Making Meaning in the 21st century.
00;12;42;05 - 00;12;59;01
And this was a constant reframe, this idea that if AI is inevitable, then what we need to save for youth is that productive struggle is is this idea that critical thinking can be maintained.
00;12;59;03 - 00;13;21;00
With I know there's certainly a fear and there's, you know, there's excitement. And all of those feelings are valid. I try to, to to go back to that foundation of learning, when we're talking about in terms of K to 12 education. So, you know, yes, we have a responsibility to talk about digital literacy and how to use it effectively.
00;13;21;02 - 00;13;48;26
But ultimately the classrooms are a place of learning. And if we can always try to at the so at the fact of education with pre-service teachers, I'm always talking about, how are you going to foster curiosity and wonder in your students? Yes, you might be a bit nervous about teaching math, or maybe about teaching, science, if that wasn't something that you took when in university or I, you know, that's not something that most people have learned about and has young learners themselves.
00;13;49;03 - 00;14;13;05
So, by focusing on that question, like, that's kind of like the big question is like, ultimately that's your goal as a teacher, I would hope, you know, to figure out ways that we can get them excited about learning or get them to wonder about the world around them, or be curious. And if I, can be used to foster that, then great.
00;14;13;08 - 00;14;43;08
But and often it might end up limiting that it might like kind of short circuit that curiosity part. Take us away from that because it often, especially with generative AI, we've kind of moved beyond generative AI, I think, and moved into like more a gentle AI, but with with generative AI, it kind of like we know that it's like you put in the input, you get the output, you know, so like we're missing all the beautiful part in between the, the productive struggle, which I think is a key part of the the learning process.
00;14;43;10 - 00;15;02;13
So if we can find ways to make sure that we're still fostering that, then then that would be awesome. When I this morning I was dropping off. So we have three older boys, and then we have a daughter who's in JC, so our oldest is grade 12. My youngest is in junior kindergarten, and I dropped her off.
00;15;02;13 - 00;15;29;26
And, I can tell you a story later about BS and kind of like her own wonder about the world. But after I dropped off my oldest, to school, and I was talking to him about AI because then you're was connecting with the two of you today, and. And as I was driving home, I was thinking of an analogy for it because we're often talking about, AI and then, like, what it produces and we're missing all the in between.
00;15;29;26 - 00;15;52;00
And, I was thinking about like the it was if it's a hot day and you have your air conditioner turned on, you can have the option to recirculate the air that's inside so it doesn't have to work as hard, you know, because then it has to bring in hot air from the outside. And whenever I use that, to get it cooler faster in the car, I always think, oh my gosh, like, am I not getting any fresh air in here?
00;15;52;00 - 00;16;08;15
I'm just recycling the air that I'm already breathing. I'm sure there's filters and stuff involved, but I like to, you know, have the air come in from the outside every so often. And I feel like sometimes with, with AI and this might be a terrible analogy. I haven't really thought through it yet. This is really good. I can see where you're going.
00;16;08;15 - 00;16;29;04
And like, I could like it's like very like you go to the input and then you have the output and, and you know, it's very predictive. Like so when, when I've heard teachers say, I'm getting all the same answers from students, you know, in an essay or something, and it's because it's very predictive. They're all inputting the same prompt, you know, whatever the question has for the assignment.
00;16;29;06 - 00;16;56;08
So, so, you know, that might be helpful in some cases. But we do have to bring in the fresh air, the new ideas, the human, questions like challenge it and, bring in, you know, some creativity to that, bring in that curiosity. And then having that might kind of like change the direction of where you're going or, just having that like a refresh, I guess, of, of ideas.
00;16;56;08 - 00;17;16;26
So, I like to try and think of it like that, where we do have to, like, challenge and ask questions and, and bring in the curiosity. Otherwise we're just going to get the same kind of stale air for a book. I love that. Well, I'm pretty sure that and, I mean, we are daughters of the similar age, like, you know, very close.
00;17;16;28 - 00;17;51;17
And I know you were part of a paper. You know, computational thinking with, you know, play. I think it was like naming and understanding, through play for young kids. So I'm really curious to understand how you're thinking about it or talking about it or what you're finding for really young kids three 4 or 5, six. And, you know, maybe this goes to your B story at some point, but how you're thinking about fostering that, you know, and, you know, the impacts of AI and these underlying skills that may or may not be different than what we were teaching a few years ago with, you know, coding and others.
00;17;51;21 - 00;18;19;19
Yeah. So it's funny that you bring that, that paper up in that kind of that was sort of the first research project I was a part of, as a research assistant. And then working on that, I was introduced to some people who I would consider mentors and who kind of encouraged me to pursue the PhD. And actually it was originally at Laurier University, where I started doing that research work, and then I ended up starting there in September.
00;18;19;22 - 00;18;45;07
But and so recently I started a coding in kindergarten project. It's, funded by the federal government. And we're working, in a local school board, supporting teachers, elementary or, early childhood educators, as well as a kindergarten teachers and how they can incorporate coding because here in Ontario, we now have coding as a key part of the new kindergarten curriculum, which is being implemented in September.
00;18;45;10 - 00;19;13;23
So we anticipated that, and and then it was released right after we put the proposal in and we were granted the funds, which I was really excited about. But we're, we're look for that project. And I'll come back to answering your question, but for that project, we're looking at how we can support teachers with all of this learning, given the fact that there's actually, a challenge to release teachers to so that they can, participate in professional development because there's, you know, teacher shortages.
00;19;13;23 - 00;19;36;11
How do we replace the teachers while they're off learning about PD, and then funding, issues as well? So we're working on a classroom embedded professional development model, to support teachers in the classroom, with learning coding. So some of the things that we're looking at is using a little robot called the tail bot, and is interactive.
00;19;36;11 - 00;20;10;11
It's really cool. We've done some initial, trials with some teachers, and they they love it. They feel so much better about the new, coding expectations. Now, having that, but coming back to, you know, how this benefits young learners. And I, again, feel like it's not really about producing, you know, workers in the future. And I'm especially in K to eight, I'm more I'm not really as concerned about, you know, them being future employees or you know, supporting them for the workplace.
00;20;10;13 - 00;20;30;27
It's again, it's always for me about the learning. Like learning is exciting and is is and we want them to want to learn and being curious, but what I find is when we're working with young people, it really helps us to push their thinking and teach them in different ways, than using some of the other traditional methods.
00;20;30;27 - 00;20;51;08
So, with coding as well, it also helps with spatial reasoning. So the little robot, we're trying to navigate it around the grid and the, the children, try to predict where it's going to go and then they can test it out. They get the immediate feedback right away. We can have them, you know, code the little robot to go through.
00;20;51;08 - 00;21;13;23
Maybe a, life cycle of, organism of a bee honeybee or something. So they're and then they're counting as they're doing that. So it ends up being like a tool. But it feels like more than a tool as well, because they're also learning these other, coding concepts that maybe will help them to better understand, technology as they move through the grades.
00;21;13;27 - 00;21;34;18
It's kind of like setting them up, for future learning. Yeah. And there's almost, sort of your own, but there's almost like a component to it. And kind of what's interesting is that a lot of this was happening maybe in like slightly different ways, but it was happening. It was just about naming and understanding or applying, which I think is also super interesting, especially for parents.
00;21;34;21 - 00;21;58;03
You know, I still hear screen time. We're coding. Like, do we need to, especially in AI, but I think it's less about something new, a novel as it is about naming and understanding and bridging those connections. Is that fair to say? Yeah. So then so if you if the teacher hasn't understanding of, you know, what they're supposed to be looking for, then they're better able to to teach the students.
00;21;58;03 - 00;22;20;05
And if they kind of understand that continuum of skills or you know, even just like learning about numeracy or literacy, if they understand that, then they're better able to support students where they're going next. So if there's kind of like a continuum, them, they're able to identify where the students are at and then where they can push their their thinking next.
00;22;20;05 - 00;22;43;06
But yeah, for that particular paper, we were just looking at, you know, noticing and then naming it, to be more explicit so that the teacher could then, better support their students. As you mentioned, you know, kindergarten has computer science being rolled out in September. I think, you know, I've, I've been watching as as they incorporate computer science across the entire curriculum at all levels.
00;22;43;06 - 00;23;02;06
And I think what I like about the approach, if I understand it correctly, is that it's it's as opposed to like, this does not mean there's a computer science class now for kindergartners to go to. It just means it's incorporated into the day to day curriculum. And that's the idea all the way up. And I think that's helped ease a lot of the fear of a lot of teachers I've talked to as well, just that like, oh, I don't have to learn computer science.
00;23;02;06 - 00;23;23;03
It's that I'm incorporating computational thinking across the board. Do you see? I guess I'm curious if you see. So I know we're just having a rolled out, computer science for K to 12 yet that's, or for kindergarten anyway. But do you see AI having a similar sort of integration across, across elementary school grades? And what would that look like?
00;23;23;05 - 00;23;52;16
Yeah. I'm still kind of thinking a lot about that. What is it going to look like? What does it look like now? I worry that it might kind of take away from the cognitive load that's so important for our students to develop, like, you know, I you probably you've heard all those, concerns. Now, when I so part of my research for my PhD was supporting pre-service teachers with learning, how to integrate coding in mathematics.
00;23;52;18 - 00;24;14;07
And there was, at the beginning of the course there, really nervous and uncomfortable. But then by the end, they feel confident and competent and excited and kind of ready to lead the way. So what kind of needs to happen in between? And maybe we can apply that to both? You know, in-service teachers? I because that's also something that's new.
00;24;14;07 - 00;24;37;05
And that's why there's this fear, because there's a lack of understanding, and confidence and competence around using it. But then also maybe we can apply this to the student as well, with developing their understanding. So through that, they in my thesis, we went that's the pre-service teachers underwent a number of turning points. And, each turning point was like an moment.
00;24;37;07 - 00;24;53;27
And it usually involves some sort of, like, struggle where they were like, at the beginning, they were so scared. And then we just threw them right in, rather than talking about it too much. And and they experienced it right away. So that was like a big moment, like, oh, this is kind of different than what I've been doing before.
00;24;53;27 - 00;25;11;22
You know, maybe we can see that with AI. Now it does have like for me, it has to be purposeful. All it has. I like the idea of using a tool that maybe can act like as a buddy or as, like a, almost like a little tutor. We can scaffold more with AI. So that's where I, I hope we see it going.
00;25;11;25 - 00;25;38;23
But throughout that whole, kind of four turning points that the pre-service teachers went through, they had to experience something that kind of pushed their thinking and shifted their perspective. And I think that helps us to sort through things when we shift our perspectives. And almost if we can, like, somehow enable or afford those shifts in perspectives to happen, for the teachers and the students, they might they might approach it differently.
00;25;38;23 - 00;26;03;05
I think, and see, see how it can be used. But looking at just like, I like, I like how it could be used. So of course, I like my colleagues at Laurie University. Doctor Carrie Ertz and Taryn, chef Sheffield, doctor Cherilyn Scheffler, they're working on a project where they're creating, a, something to support student writing, and they're working with a number of school boards.
00;26;03;05 - 00;26;29;13
So, it's really it's interesting to like take into account teachers perspective and the student perspective as they develop, you know, this technology, the software that can be. Yeah. So I, I like that direction like using you know, creating not just using any, AI app, you know, but actually using one that was meant for education to support, our students learning with my own work.
00;26;29;13 - 00;26;56;02
I'm besides the coding kindergarten, I'm working on, a research project related to programable devices and I. So what I really want to see more of, and so in grade seven and eight in many provinces. But here in Ontario, it mentions emerging technologies, including I like it actually says that in the curriculum. So, what we're doing for that is we're going to help the pre-service teachers learn it, and then they can help the teachers learn it as well.
00;26;56;02 - 00;27;17;04
Kind of like a partnership. So they program the little micro bits to collect data. You can automate the collection of data, learn about how all this data is, can be analyzed. But what you can also do, there's a number of tools for young people to use that help them to understand machine learning. And, and, and actually, they can build their own little machine learning models.
00;27;17;06 - 00;27;42;05
So in that sense, they're constructing for their learning. So that again comes down to my biases. Like I'm big on, Seymour Popper's idea of construct ism where they're constructing to create meaning to create help with their learning, and by creating these little machine learning models. So it's not exactly how it is there. There's, you know, there's simplified, but they start to see that they, they, I'll give you an example.
00;27;42;05 - 00;28;06;29
So create AI through it, through, Microbit Foundation. Is a tool that can be used so the students can collect, acceleration data, and then later use it to identify, their movements. So for example, they might collect, a certain dance move. So maybe I'm doing this and un whole bunch of that. They'll collect themselves doing that, then they'll do like a different dance move.
00;28;07;02 - 00;28;26;21
So maybe they're waving, I don't know, like this in the. They'll, they'll do this for all the different dance moves. And then at the end, the they're they're created, they're collecting enough data so that the machine will be able to identify which movement they were doing in the end. So they're creating this little machine learning model. And then what they notice is that they collect too many of one thing.
00;28;26;21 - 00;29;01;17
It becomes bias. Or if they collect too few of something, you know, it might not ever think it's that, so they're starting to look at the underpinnings of how AI works rather than, using it. They're actually building with it and creating with it. And that I think, will help them to make better decisions, more informed decisions in the future when they're using AI, if they if they kind of see how it's actually built, and all the, the human biases that go into that when it is being built, that forcing those turning points as well for folks.
00;29;01;17 - 00;29;18;29
Right? That's right. We've got to apply that then another way. Well, I'm also I'm like as I hear you talk, I'm like I'm wondering if we're like also just at a turning point. It'll be interesting. So maybe I'm curious because you've been at this for a long time, right? Like you've been teaching at the kind of inception of the movement of computer science and coding in the curriculum.
00;29;18;29 - 00;29;37;20
I know we've worked together, you know, various ways, like, I'm curious what will look different or the same in like ten years if you've got a take on it, you know, like what or how you're thinking about, you know, with all the advancements, like, is there something that's that's not going to change or is like, what what is education look like for you in the next decade?
00;29;37;22 - 00;29;57;21
Yeah. Gosh, I, I hope that we're better able to serve our students and meet them where they each individually are so that we can, you know, I'm really big on, like, pushing them all past their, zone of proximal development, as I said, or pushing them, to foster their curiosity and interests, you know, what are they passionate about?
00;29;57;23 - 00;30;23;24
Or they don't know what they don't know. So we have to help them to figure out what their what they're passionate about. I can't like I don't even know what's going to look like next year or two years from now. Ten years from now feels like it could be. I just hope though, like whatever it is, I hope that we're still, focused on that whole, idea of, like, helping our students to be excited about learning and curious about the world.
00;30;23;26 - 00;30;47;06
And we're not worried so much worried about preparing them for the next thing or, you know, getting the right grades. Just let's just stick with what, is so important and foundational for our students to learn and, and getting them excited about what they're doing. And if that involves, you know, maybe I can support that.
00;30;47;08 - 00;31;21;21
Then that's great. Like, sometimes you can use it to immerse them in a world, like an artificial world. They can explore worlds in that sense. So maybe that would help with their with fostering curiosity and and wonder and that sense of, because that tends to spark the learning. Right? So without that kind of initial wonder, I don't think it's hard to grasp, their interest and, and and keep them and keep them interested and then that's where that agency comes in, where they're like they want it changes the direction of their learning.
00;31;21;21 - 00;31;40;22
So maybe it will make learning more personalized and seeing, you know, people doing that with some of the apps available. I hope it I hope, though it's at the center, is always this excitement about learning.
00;31;40;24 - 00;32;10;10
This interview concludes the discussion of open access educational projects such as Western's University AI hyphen Edca, and this distinction between basic generative prompts and purpose built education, a gen tech AI. And as we'll hear Lisa talk here, as she really advocates for policy level protections for young people, rather than placing the entire burden of digital literacy on children.
00;32;10;12 - 00;32;40;09
So my piece supervisor was co-leading that, and it was also kind of like a cross faculty project with the Faculty of Computer Science. So there were all kinds of really interesting things, that, that was, that were worked on through that project. I was more, helping out, you know, at the conference. I also was, able to visit some, indigenous communities in the remote north.
00;32;40;11 - 00;33;13;26
So that was like, such a valuable and incredible experience for me. We also, they there was a computer scientist who was specializing in machine learning, and he was just finishing up his PhD, and it was in collaboration with, Indigenous Knowledge shares. And so they were creating an app that students would be able to play around with in, to learn about hunting, taking into account in various indigenous ways of knowing.
00;33;14;01 - 00;33;40;03
So, like, you know, why we hunt different seasons and which animals you hunt at each of those seasons. And then they were also, looking at, a model, a machine learning model where there were these little agents and, one agent was was hunting and one was fishing, and they were trying to figure out, can I figure out the best way to live sustainably on this Make-Believe land?
00;33;40;05 - 00;34;06;09
And actually they did. They started to share and collaborate and trade with one another. And the whole purpose, even though they didn't say that this was the purpose. Like, feed this into the machine, it it started to realize it needs to sustain itself. And the best way to sustain itself is to live, cooperatively, and, and share resources and not overuse anything.
00;34;06;09 - 00;34;28;06
So that was a really neat project. You can see more of that on the website. There's some videos of, some of the people involved with that project talking about it, and it was really neat to hear one of, indigenous knowledge shares rage on junior. Talk about, just like how his father always said to keep an open mind.
00;34;28;06 - 00;34;49;24
So, you know, when he was approached about the project, you know, he was a bit hesitant as well, but like, keeping that open mind and considering how new tools have helped all of his ancestors, with, with, you know, doing things differently. And so it was really neat for him to, to, to hear his perspective, about that project.
00;34;49;26 - 00;35;11;10
But there are a lot of other resources on there as well. So, doctor Anthony, this is work within mathematics education. So machine learning is really just a whole bunch of mathematic models, like algorithms in the background. And so trying to bring those and make them more accessible for, for young people, is sort of something that he does.
00;35;11;10 - 00;35;28;19
And in all of his work to you, tries to bring in that element of surprise, into learning. And he always says, like, if, if, if students already know the ending to the movie is not really that exciting. So, with teaching, you know, often we say we have to have our learning goals and our success criteria at the beginning.
00;35;28;21 - 00;35;47;27
But I'm also quite hesitant about that because, like, if they know what's going to happen, why would they want to learn it? Like let's like get that I'm curious. And and if we can bring in that element of surprise and create a bunch of puzzles for students to work through. And so you'll find a lot of those resources that he's created, are on there.
00;35;47;29 - 00;36;05;15
That's really neat. Yeah, it's such a neat resource. And there are so many. There's lesson plans, there's videos, there's even a comic book. But I think it'd be really cool to, to point teachers towards if there is any interest there. It's I hyphen educator. That is great. The one other kind of I wanted to do.
00;36;05;15 - 00;36;25;06
Sorry. I'll just come back to, just like I. There's no word time. I just to make sure Lisa's okay. Yeah. Are you okay? Yeah, yeah. It's okay. I'm. I'm, editing the show as we talk there. There was one moment, where you mentioned, generative and agenda. I, I'm curious. We just cut in to that moment and just.
00;36;25;09 - 00;36;48;09
Do you mind just explaining, what the differences between generative energy and magenta? Yeah. I'm not really an AI expert. Like, this is just me kind of, thinking about how it can be used in the classroom. And I was at a I think tank the other day, so, my colleagues, Doctor Ewert and Doctor Mueller at Laurier, invited a number of different people from industry.
00;36;48;11 - 00;37;14;16
And actually, your last podcast, Jessica, she was there and I heard her speak, and I was like, I want to learn more about her, talk with her. Like, and then I listened to your podcast and I was like, oh, that's you I wanted to hear more from. So that was kind of neat. Yeah. So, they, they have like a, a framework that they are working on to make.
00;37;14;18 - 00;37;45;23
Yeah. More or to consider inclusive, unethical practices when making decisions about AI. But now I forget what you what? Oh, yeah. The difference between us. So, I, I'm thinking that with generative AI, we can it's more just like input output, like ChatGPT, Gemini Copilot. They're all kind of doing something similar there. But with this newer version, like, I heard someone at that.
00;37;45;23 - 00;38;15;18
This is what I was bringing back, that think tank. I heard someone there talking about how we're. Now there's agents, a genetic AI where we can actually use the AI to help us break through problems and scaffold things and help us, you know, with, with, scheduling or, and in very specific purposes. So I think that might be more use in, in classrooms, because it's has a specific purpose and we could feed into it.
00;38;15;18 - 00;38;46;08
What, what we feel is really important in education. You know, there's still some concern that maybe that's taking away or robbing us of the excitement of learning. And we have to be really careful about that. I think, anyway. So, yeah, that it was just more, more of considering how we might use AI, certain apps for specific purposes rather than, always kind of defaulting to Copilot or Gemini or whatever school districts, are using.
00;38;46;08 - 00;39;05;11
There's a lot of talk about you just need to know what prompts to write in. And for sure, you know, like that used to be what I would think. But we've come so far now, that I think it's it's more than that. I think too, too many original plans, like just knowing the prompts. It doesn't it doesn't let you know what's going on in the background.
00;39;05;11 - 00;39;29;24
Right. And I think it's so important to understand why that prompt worked. If you're ever gonna be able to craft better prompts, even if that's if that's ultimately our end goal. You have to understand why it worked. Why didn't what's happening in the background, how it's thinking there or not? And and so, so many people don't know what's happening and, and, you know, in Manitoba had the premier, ban is suggesting that we ban social media for young people.
00;39;30;00 - 00;39;58;12
And some people are really upset about that because they're like, well, we need to make sure we're helping students understand digital literacy, how to work with this. But like the playing field is not level like it's social media is not neutral. Like we have these app developers taking advantage of our, students and young people and is that fair to just put the onus on them to use self-regulation skills like that's in time when they're developing, these adults struggle to do that, and we're just expecting children.
00;39;58;17 - 00;40;19;00
So yes, we do have to help them to develop, you know, that literacy about using technology. But, first, I think we have to make sure there's some sort of policy saying that these companies can't take advantage of our young people, like they're literally using psychological warfare to keep them using the devices right to the more engagement, the more clicks, the more money they make.
00;40;19;00 - 00;40;42;29
So I think it's more if we look at it like that, like, do people really know, like what is happening behind the scenes? I it can be scary and frightening. It actually is. It should be. We should be concerned. So just taking a step back, I think, and saying, you know, maybe we should look at more, how we might be able to protect our students and our children.
00;40;42;29 - 00;41;03;17
And maybe it is not using it until there are some measures put in place. Thanks so much for taking the time. We really appreciate it. Take care of. Thanks for inviting me. Thank you so much. That concludes this episode of. I really grateful you could join us today. And Mal, thank you very much for those Covid walks you had with so that we could, we could parlay that into this great interview.
00;41;03;20 - 00;41;23;00
Yeah, I love it. This is a great one. Excellent. Make sure you join us next time and talk to you soon. AI is a proud Canadian podcast of the Pinnguaq Foundation and Canada Learning Code. I am your host, Ryan Oliver, joined by Melissa Sariffodeen. This show was produced by Zac Miller and edited by Zac Miller and Kyle Gordon.
00;41;23;02 - 00;41;30;22
If you want support, I support the work we are doing. Then please consider a donation to the Foundation. You can find us on Canada Helps.
